Transcript
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
You're listening to The Sigrun Show, episode number 414. In this episode, I talk to Prerna and Mayank Malik about working with your dream clients, regardless of language, location, or list size.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Welcome to The Sigrun Show. I'm your host Sigrun, creator of SOMBA, the MBA program for online entrepreneurs. With each episode, I'll share with you inspiring case studies and interviews to help you achieve your dreams and turn your passion into profits. Thank you for spending time with me today. Building an online business takes time. I share with you proven strategies to help you get there faster. You'll also learn how to master your mindset, up-level your marketing, and succeed with masterminds.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Today, I speak with Prerna and Mayank Malik, the founders of Content Bistro. They help their clients with conversion copywriting and offer launch strategies for online course creators. They've worked with over 500 clients worldwide, including some of the biggest names in the industry. In this episode, we talk about how to find dream clients regardless of the language, location, or list size.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Before we dive in, though, have you all ready signed up for my free five day online course? If you're not sure which steps to take to build and grow your online business in 2021, this is for you. Whether you are just starting out or ready to scale, this free five day course will give you the clarity, inspiration, and motivation you need to make 2021 your best year yet. From January 11 to 15, I'll teach you how to get clear on your offer your clients actually want to buy, how to craft unique content, and how to build and grow a loyal audience, and so much more. Go to the show notes at sigrun.com/414 to sign up for the free five-day course, and there, you will also find all the links to Prerna and Mayank Malik.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
I'm so excited to be here with Prerna Malik and Mayank Malik, to talk about how to land dream clients, even though you are maybe in India or Iceland, or who knows where you are in the world, have a small maybe list, and you can be speaking another language and you can still land the client in another language. How they have done it, they're going to share that with us in this episode. But Prerna and I all ready met many, many years ago through an online business course that we did, so it's great to reconnect again. Welcome on the show, Prerna and Mayank.
Mayank Malik:
Thanks so much for having us, Sigrun. Really excited.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah, very excited to be here, and yeah, looking forward to just sharing all of this with your audience. So, really looking forward to it.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, I am now in Reykjavik, Iceland. You can hear the echo in my room because I just moved into my penthouse. I think this is the first episode I record in my new home office, in my home in Iceland. And you are in India. Which city in India are you in?
Prerna Malik:
So, we're in a city called Gurgaon, which is a suburb of New Delhi. New Delhi is the capital of India, and Gurgaon is about 30 minutes away from New Delhi. So, yeah, we're on the opposite ends of the world.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Yeah. So, it's 10:00 AM for me. What time is for you?
Mayank Malik:
It's just a little after 3:00 in the afternoon for us.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, not too bad. So, it's not like when I'm interviewing sometimes people in Australia, I have to maybe stay up very late, or they have to get up very early. So, this is kind of a decent hour for you and decent hour for me. It's great.
Mayank Malik:
Yeah.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, I want to go back to that time where we met first, Prerna, through this online business course. What were you doing in your business then, and why did you decide to go online? What was going on? And we want to take the story, of course, to what you're doing today, but I always like to understand where people come from and why they do what they do.
Prerna Malik:
Absolutely. Yeah. So, we met way back, I think, in 2013. We were in business a couple of years. And at that time, what we were doing was social media management and blog content writing, so a lot of content marketing and digital media services for small business owners. And even then at that point of time, we were working with the US, Australian, and Canadian market, even though we've always lived in India and English is not our first language. But yeah, that's what we were doing at that point of time. It was really, really great because we worked with, again, we work with some really amazing business owners, Tsh Oxenreider of Simple Mom was one of our clients. We also worked with Andrew Iris of [inaudible 00:05:14]. There were a lot of really good business owners that we worked with, but what was happening is that we…
Prerna Malik:
What we felt was clients were coming to us and asking us like, “Oh, we are also launching a program. Would you write a sales page for me?” And I've written sales pages for our products, but not really for a client or sales emails for a client, as such. And at that point we started, because people were asking us to do that, we felt like it would be better if I could learn copywriting properly before just going ahead and saying, “Yeah,” just because I'm good at writing. I do a good job at a sales page too. So, I really wanted to understand how that worked, and I took a couple of courses, joined a copywriting mastermind as well. And one thing led to the other, and then, yeah, today we pivoted entirely from social media about five years ago, was it?
Mayank Malik:
Five years ago. Yeah.
Prerna Malik:
into purely conversion copywriting and launch strategies for online course creators, coaches, and consultants.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, how did you land those first clients? When you say English is not your first language… And I like that, it's not my first language either, and here we are speaking in English together. How did you start getting clients internationally? Because I think a lot of my audience is interested, possibly, building a business in English, even though they're based maybe in Germany or Switzerland, and they're wondering like, how do you get started? How do you get those first clients? Did joining that online business program, being surrounded with other English-speaking entrepreneurs help, or did you use some other routes?
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. I'll have to backtrack a little to take you further back because when we joined that online business course, the one that you and I were in together, we'd been in business for, I think, a couple of years at that point of time, and it was more to learn like, are there any gaps in our marketing that we could fill and all of that. But the fact is that I started with a blog and I had started writing, and I sharpened my writing skills quite a bit.
Prerna Malik:
So, when we decided to get into business and move from just the mom blog model to a business, which actually happened when Mayank got really sick, he had an autoimmune disorder and he was in a lot of pain, and he had to leave work, his corporate job. And he was on bed rest for about a year. So, when we started working on his lifestyle, on his diet, and just helping him get better, that point we had to take a decision, would he go back to work or would we pursue this part-time blogging thing as a business? So, that's when we thought like, “Let's give this a shot and see if the blogging thing can become a business.” And that's pretty much how we got into business.
Prerna Malik:
But the fact is that I did spend a bit of time reading a lot and understanding that I needed to have a certain way of approaching clients. The first few clients, honestly, Sigrun, we landed through warm email pitches. This is, again, I'm talking way back in the day. This was not the day of sending a lot of personal videos or a lot of… This is like 2011. I had a BlogSpot blog, so it was really way back. But warm email pitches were our number one marketing strategy and helped us to get those first few clients.
Prerna Malik:
In fact, even for some of our social media clients, like [inaudible 00:08:51] for that matter, she was a blogger, she had a mom blog and a huge brand, but I was a regular reader so I reached out to her saying that, “This is what I do, we offer this as a service. We know with the holidays approaching…” Or it was, in fact, summer. “With summer approaching, you want to spend more time with your kids, and this is something we'd love to take off your plate. So, if this is something of interest, let's chat about it.” And she emailed back saying, “Hey, I think that's a really great idea.”
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Wow. Okay. I want to pick on that because I get pitches almost every day, and they're awful. They're awful. They don't know anything about me. They're horrible. We try to not respond to them, to be honest, and then they follow up some of them. “Why didn't you respond to my email?” And I'm like, “Geez.” I'm on the verge of taking over the help desk and saying, “WTF, who are you? What are you trying to achieve? Because there's no…” You say warm outreach. What's the difference?
Prerna Malik:
So, cold outreach is like very similar to what you described, where your email addresses are put into maybe a tool now, and these are the templated emails that go out that sound kind of personal, especially now. At that time, it was probably a few degrees worse, but now, there are those outreach tools. And I'm sure they have a lot of benefit and they could help you save time, but we've always believed that there are certain things in business that still need a personal touch, and this is one of those things. So, warm email would be where you would really take the time to understand the business. You would see how is it that you are going to bring value to it, and this is regardless of any service. In fact, this is true for our copywriting services, too, now. You understand that, how is it that you would bring value to the table for the client? What's in it for them?
Prerna Malik:
To give you an example, when you're reaching out to someone and someone reaches out to you and says, “Hey, Sigrun, I'd love to take over, say, podcast editing for you,” they should have taken the time to understand, or listen to your podcast, probably caught on to something where you said that, “I'm struggling with this,” and then tied it in with that. Like, “In episode so-and-so, I heard you say that your podcast editor's on maternity and you really need help, so I was just wondering, would this be something of interest to you? And if so, let's chat about it. Just keep it open-ended. If not, no worries at all. Literally no worries at all. I'm a fan, would continue to remain a fan, but I just thought I would let you know.” And that's it.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, you send out these, let's say, warm pitches, they're prepared pitches rather than-
Prerna Malik:
Yes.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
… unprepared. Yeah. And then, some people don't reply, I guess, and some people say, “No, thank you.” And then, you'd still get a few. I think this is something that maybe people in Europe are scared of doing, or I don't know, if that's my perception from my audience that is something that people are scared of doing. You say this works.
Prerna Malik:
Yep.
Mayank Malik:
Yeah.
Prerna Malik:
Absolutely. So, it works for pretty much everything that we've done. And then what happens is that all it takes as a matter of one or two pitches, and then you get that momentum, you get that confidence, and then it's up to you to show up and do a really good job. Because landing the client is step one, working with and retaining that client, that's the next step, is where you just show up and wow them so that they then talk about you to their friends, but then that's the other part of how we built this business-
Mayank Malik:
Absolutely.
Prerna Malik:
… is referrals. Yeah.
Mayank Malik:
Absolutely. And even though we don't really do any warm pitching these days, because all our work comes through referrals, and we do a lot of repeat projects with our clients, but we still use the same principle of not having that fear to reach out. So, a lot of the times you'd probably send a proposal, and the prospect at the other end is swamped with a lot of other things, it gets buried in the emails. We've generally seen, if you follow up, tying in with what's happening in their life, they would just then want to come back and think about that project. So, one should never really have that fear of reaching out.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
And also, maybe not be insulted if there is no reply or, “No, thank you.”
Prerna Malik:
Absolutely.
Mayank Malik:
Absolutely.
Prerna Malik:
Absolutely. Yeah. There's nothing personal here. This is business. And although, business is personal, especially in our case, one needs to understand that there could be 1,000,001 reasons why someone chose not to respond, and unless you've got very specific red flags around it, I feel like it's just… Yeah, that's just a marketing thing that you need to chalk it up to and move on.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Yeah. So, you had already been, been doing this warm pitches, you've landed a few clients, and then in 2013, you're honing your skills. What changed there? We know that being a part of a big community and coming into an international community can also help explode a business. Did that [inaudible 00:13:57] more client?
Prerna Malik:
Being a part of the online course community that you and I were a part of was, yes, helpful, but not to a huge extent. What really helped us was forming more personal connections with people in the community. I think that's how you and I met, and I've followed your journey. So, even though we may not be part of the community any longer… The same was true for a lot of other people in the community as well, where you find people who align with you on the same values or on the same… maybe it's just a shared vision for how you see the world. Maybe it's just, you're excited by the work they're doing or how they're showing up, and you just want to be there to cheer them on and be a part of their support system.
Prerna Malik:
So, for me personally, it was more just getting to know people and just forming those connections. But yeah, I would say whenever you join any online community, it's super important, big or small, you need to take the time to identify a handful of people who you'd really like to get to know better and then just connect with them. At least that's what's worked with us. Again, don't know if it's right or wrong, but it's worked, so yeah [inaudible 00:00:15:14].
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Oh, I totally agree. I definitely got several clients from being a part of that community. But if I look back now, because I've left it, because the community doesn't exist anymore, I can identify people around me. I'm like, “I met this, this, this, this person through there.” Even though the community doesn't exist anymore, I could probably name you, quickly now, 10 people that are a part of my life today as a result of that.
Prerna Malik:
It's the same for us. It's the same for us. That is what goals should be. So, while we weren't making any active pitches to people in the community [inaudible 00:15:49], we were definitely taking the time out to connect with them, get to know what their business is about. And yes, a few months down the line, some of them did turn into clients, and a lot of them have continued to become really good friends as well. Because it's been, what, seven years now, and we've just seen each other grow, our families grow, and all of that, so you just have that really nice, warm… in the relationship now.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Yeah. So, you talk about how to land clients from all over the world, and increasingly maybe known clients or someone who seems to be unreachable for the regular person, does it just start with warm pitches and then referrals? Or are there more parts to that?
Prerna Malik:
There are definitely are more parts to it. It does start with building that relationship and then reaching out to them and letting them know that, “Hey, I'd be happy to be a part of your team. I'd be happy to help you with…” You'd see that they got a launch coming up, or if you're, say, a launch copywriter, or it could just be like, we also do consulting on things like your offer positionings. If you feel like someone needs help with that, we let them know. But I feel like that's probably step one.
Prerna Malik:
The other things is just understanding that you need to be really, really good at your work because the best in the industry, more often than not, want to work with the best in the industry. So, you need to understand that you have to… This is something that we constantly invest in and work on is increasing your skills so that you can bring more value to the table. I'm a specialist in conversion copywriting, but there is so much more that I can bring to the table in terms of things like launch strategy or offer positioning. And even with launch copywriting, you want to be really good at that. Or if you're a graphic designer, you want to be really good at your craft. You need to constantly invest in your and constantly up-level your skills so that you're not only confident in yourself, but then your clients start to see those results.
Mayank Malik:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing that we've realized has worked really well for us is that you need to really have a genuine connection that you want to forge with with that person, so it's not that you connect with them and then you're pitching your services. So, do you really respect them for what they're doing in the community? Do you respect the skills that they bring to the table? Do you want to learn from them? So, that relationship and connection builds over a period of time, and it's then a two way process, because then they also start to get slightly intrigued and interested in what you're doing. Maybe if you're on the same networks, they're seeing the wins that you're sharing, the results that you're getting for other clients. And this builds that momentum, and then at the right point, when you feel that you can add value, is when you're really pitching your services.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
It makes sense, especially for those who maybe offer courses themselves. Maybe you join their community. If it's a dream client, if it's a dream client you want to land, it would be maybe you invest in joining their community to get closer to them. Is that how you start to work with some of those clients? Can you give as a story around that?
Prerna Malik:
Sure. So, yeah, for instance, we've done multiple projects with Pat Flynn of Smart Passive Income, and in fact, our connection and relationship with him started way back. We were on his email list and we're constantly really engaged, watching his videos, commenting, like Mayank said, so showing up on different platforms and supporting their work genuinely, because that was what we really needed as well. His advice was really helpful for us when we were watching his videos and all of that, so we would just participate in the community. And then he launched a program called Affiliate Marketing Made Easy, and affiliate marketing was something that we were interested in exploring and adding to our revenue mix. So, it just made a lot of sense because we'd seen him do a really great job, so we signed up for the program, showed up, worked through it, got great results, shared that as well, ended up giving a really good video testimonial for him as well.
Prerna Malik:
And then what happened was in 2017, in fact, I attended a lot of conferences in the US and Pat was speaking at two of those, and I ended up meeting him in person as well. And then, after that, I noticed that they were working on a launch for one of his flagship courses, so I reached out and let him know that if there's anything that I could do to help, I'd love to be a part of the team and just contribute. So, this was not like an email pitch either, this was like on Instagram. And he was like, “Yeah, sure. Let's get on a call, and why don't you walk me through how you could help?” Got on a call, I walked him through my process, what are the things that I do for our launch copy clients and all of that, and that's how we signed up for the first project. And then I ended up also working on the Affiliate Marketing Made Easy course project as well. So, those were all projects that they were looking to upgrade and looking at optimizing the results that they were getting from.
Prerna Malik:
And then, there was a [inaudible 00:21:07] project that I ended up doing for them for another course that they were launching on email marketing. So, one project led to another and another. That, again, has been, like Mayank was saying, we don't do warm pitches or a lot of marketing as such these day, in fact for the last few years, because a lot of our clients are either repeat projects or through referrals.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
But you didn't go into the relationship also with the aim of landing him as a client. Isn't that the difference? You're almost there for your own honest reasons, and it turns out, “Oh, there's a potential,” much later in the process.
Mayank Malik:
Yes. And that's important to keep in mind because you wouldn't always have a situation where they probably need your expertise, so you need to go and seeing… Obviously, you want that to be a two way relationship, but you want to see that, do you want to learn from them? And going back to the point, do you respect their skills and what they're doing in the community? And from there, you just see how that builds up.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
And what is the difference between your roles? You're like a husband and wife team, and Prerna is saying she's conversion copywriter. How does this work with the two of you together?
Prerna Malik:
Great question. So, we started our business together, and always our role definition's been pretty clear. I'm the creative writer. I write, whether it was the content or now the copy, and Mayank overseas growth and operations for the business. So, even for our clients, he's the one who's responsible for… When we're working with consulting clients, for example, in our Momentum Mis-en-Place program, he's the one who's responsible for outlining their strategies and their marketing plans and all of that.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, you're like a win-win team together?
Prerna Malik:
Oh, yes. That is exactly why, when I see a lot of other businesses hiring COOs, I am so grateful I do not need to do that.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Oh, that's perfect.
Mayank Malik:
Yeah. But I still have to say no for most unaccounted expenses [inaudible 00:23:08].
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, as you grow, I have seen it because I have a lot of copywriters as clients, there is this limit… Like you say, you still have different revenues, so now you don't just write copy for a client because there's also a limit in your own company growth when you just do that. So, you have your own products and programs. What are those?
Prerna Malik:
So, we have a lot of programs at different levels. We have our initial consulting program which is more like a… We call it a rapid rise revenue session where we just meet with clients who need our eyes on their offer or their positioning, or just need a really quick, “Oh, I've mapped out this launch. What do you feel? Are there any gaps in it?” So, it starts with that.
Prerna Malik:
And then, we have Profits on Tap, which is our program for service providers who want to scale using profit-rich packages, because that's how we've scaled our business, so it just makes a lot of sense for us to teach that. And we were actually getting a lot of requests from our fellow copywriters and service providers, like, “Okay, so walk us through how…” Because we're not an agency, there is just one writer and that's me, so we're not a team of writers. And that's the other thing that our clients, especially the ones who are at a certain level, really respect and like, is that when they hire me, they get me and not a junior writer.
Prerna Malik:
So, we've got Profits on Tap, which is a 12 week program, and then we've got Momentum Mis-en-Place, which is our program where we consult with more seasoned entrepreneurs and create custom growth plans for their business. And yeah, and next year we're launching Ready to Sell, which is my evergreen launch copywriting program.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
So, will there come a time where you do not do copy for other people?
Mayank Malik:
Maybe not. We've discussed this over and over again. So, it's still something that really excites Prerna, and there are bits and pieces of the copywriting, like the research process, which both of us do together so that really excites me. I don't think we are anywhere near the stage where we feel that copywriting's boring or we are just churning out stuff because we signed on projects, but we have made a shift in the last couple of years to almost having two distinct parts of the business. So, it's still mainly a copywriting business, but our revenue from copywriting services is more about 45 to 50%. We've grown our programs now to an extent that almost about 30% of the revenue comes from there, and we are looking to evergreen them so we can have more participants join through the year, and it's obviously then easier for us to manage.
Mayank Malik:
Then the consulting piece that we also brought in about a couple of years ago, that adds to another 12 to 15% in the mix. And then about 5% is some affiliates, those partnerships. So, the copywriting services are still about 50% of the mix. Maybe it's going to go down to 30, but we still see doing those projects at least for the next couple of years.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
That's inspiring to hear for those who are worried that if they start to offer courses, that they cannot still do what they did before. Is there any specific advice, as we come to the close of this interview, that you have for someone who is finding themselves in more like… It's almost like the hamster wheel, like you just get constant projects, but they're not getting out of the one-on-one wheel, so to speak. Is there any specific advice for those people?
Mayank Malik:
I guess the one thing that's been a big turnaround for us was to put our brand, Content Bistro, as the first client of the month, and we do it every month. So, if that means that you want to block off all Mondays in the month to work on your brand for your products, for your services, you do that. If the shift is much bigger and you want to block off two days in a week, you do that. But unless you keep your brand and your business first, you would always keep getting client projects and then you'd never get off the hamster wheel.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. The other thing that I would just add to that is like, that has definitely been a game changer. The other one is understanding what value you're bringing to the table and continuing to package that up into you're not just charging by the hour or you're not just charging by project, but the client gets to see exactly what they'll get and, at the same time, they see the value of that. That allows you to increase your rates so you don't have to work with that many clients, or, alternatively, reclaim your time so you're not spending so much time on every project because you find that, “Oh, there are certain things that I can do faster, so if I include that in a package or a project, the client still gets value, but I'm not spending that much time.” So, this is just something we teach in Profits on Tap, but it's been a real game changer for us as well.
Mayank Malik:
Yep, absolutely.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Yeah. So, what's next for you guys? What's coming up in the next 12 months?
Prerna Malik:
First off, we're very excited about Ready to Sell because that's going to be our flagship program for anyone who wants to learn everything about launch copywriting and evergreen launches specifically. Because I've worked on launches for… of course done million dollar launches for different clients, and it's not just the ALS clients that we've worked with, but we've worked in launches in different niches. So, I've done evergreen launches that are doing exceptionally well like one sale a day in a niche [inaudible 00:29:05] site so offbeat, it's all about caring for succulents. And her goal was to just be able to sell a course a day, and she's literally smashing that goal out of the park. So, I've seen and tested out a lot of things that work for evergreen funnels, so we're really excited about launching that in January. So, that's coming up.
Prerna Malik:
And then, we're also really excited about launching a brand new version of Profits on Tap. But more than that, I think we're super excited about things going back a little to normal so we can start traveling.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Yes. Yes, we all want that.
Mayank Malik:
Yeah.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. And we've got some great client projects signed up and pack… at the time of recording, which is we're in December of 2020, and we're booked out until April of 2021, our copywriting projects. So, it looks like it's shaping up to be a pretty good year.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
That sounds fabulous. It's great to talk to both of you. I wish you the best for the next 12 months. And thank you for coming on the show.
Prerna Malik:
Thank you so much for having us, Sigrun.
Mayank Malik:
Thanks, Sigrun. It was lovely chatting with you.
Sigrun Gudjonsdottir:
Have you signed up for the free five day course that it's about to start on January 11th? If not, then go to the show notes at sigrun.com/414 to sign up for the free five day course. You'll also find there the link to Prerna and Mayank Malik. Thank you for listening to the Sigrun Show. Did you enjoy this episode? Let me know that you listened by tagging me in your Insta story, your Instagram post, using my handle @sigruncom, and the hashtag #sigrunshow. See you in the next episode.